04/27/2006 08:00 AM House STATE AFFAIRS
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB189 | |
| SB86 | |
| Adjourn |
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | SB 86 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | SB 189 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE
April 27, 2006
8:09 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Paul Seaton, Chair
Representative Carl Gatto, Vice Chair
Representative Jim Elkins
Representative Bob Lynn
Representative Berta Gardner
Representative Max Gruenberg
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Jay Ramras
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 189(STA)
"An Act relating to issuance of identification cards and to
issuance of driver's licenses; and providing for an effective
date."
- FAILED TO MOVE OUT OF COMMITTEE
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 86(CRA)(efd fld)
"An Act relating to the liability of the state and
municipalities for attorney fees in certain civil actions and
appeals."
- FAILED TO MOVE OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: SB 189
SHORT TITLE: REQUIREMENTS FOR DRIVER'S LICENSE/I.D.
SPONSOR(s): SENATOR(s) HUGGINS
04/27/05 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
04/27/05 (S) STA, JUD
05/03/05 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BELTZ 211
05/03/05 (S) <Above Bill Hearing Canceled>
02/02/06 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BELTZ 211
02/02/06 (S) Heard & Held
02/02/06 (S) MINUTE(STA)
02/07/06 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BELTZ 211
02/07/06 (S) -- Rescheduled from 02/02/06 --
02/08/06 (S) STA RPT CS 4DP 1NR NEW
TITLE
02/08/06 (S) DP: THERRIAULT, WAGONER, HUGGINS, DAVIS
02/08/06 (S) NR: ELTON
02/08/06 (S) FIN REFERRAL ADDED AFTER JUD
03/21/06 (S) JUD AT 8:30 AM BUTROVICH 205
03/21/06 (S) Moved CSSB 189(STA) Out of Committee
03/21/06 (S) MINUTE(JUD)
03/22/06 (S) JUD RPT CS(STA) 4DP 1NR
03/22/06 (S) DP: SEEKINS, FRENCH, HUGGINS,
THERRIAULT
03/22/06 (S) NR: GUESS
03/27/06 (S) FIN RPT CS(STA) 4DP 1NR
03/27/06 (S) DP: WILKEN, GREEN, DYSON, STEDMAN
03/27/06 (S) NR: HOFFMAN
03/27/06 (S) FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532
03/27/06 (S) Moved CSSB 189(STA) Out of Committee
03/27/06 (S) MINUTE(FIN)
04/10/06 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
04/10/06 (S) VERSION: CSSB 189(STA)
04/11/06 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
04/11/06 (H) STA, JUD
04/12/06 (H) FIN REFERRAL ADDED AFTER JUD
04/27/06 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
BILL: SB 86
SHORT TITLE: STATE/MUNI LIABILITY FOR ATTORNEY FEES
SPONSOR(s): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
01/31/05 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/31/05 (S) CRA, JUD
02/09/05 (S) CRA AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 211
02/09/05 (S) Heard & Held
02/09/05 (S) MINUTE(CRA)
04/04/05 (S) CRA AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 211
04/04/05 (S) Moved CSSB 86(CRA) Out of Committee
04/04/05 (S) MINUTE(CRA)
04/05/05 (S) CRA RPT CS 2NR 1DP 2DNP SAME
TITLE
04/05/05 (S) NR: STEVENS G, STEDMAN
04/05/05 (S) DP: WAGONER
04/05/05 (S) DNP: ELLIS, KOOKESH
04/15/05 (S) JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205
04/15/05 (S) Heard & Held
04/15/05 (S) MINUTE(JUD)
04/18/05 (S) JUD RPT CS(CRA) 3DP 2DNP
04/18/05 (S) DP: SEEKINS, THERRIAULT, HUGGINS
04/18/05 (S) DNP: FRENCH, GUESS
04/18/05 (S) JUD AT 8:30 AM BUTROVICH 205
04/18/05 (S) Moved CSSB 86(CRA) Out of Committee
04/18/05 (S) MINUTE(JUD)
05/06/05 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
05/06/05 (S) VERSION: CSSB 86(CRA)(EFD FLD)
05/07/05 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
05/07/05 (H) STA, JUD
03/23/06 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
03/23/06 (H) Heard & Held
03/23/06 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/13/06 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
04/13/06 (H) Heard & Held
04/13/06 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/27/06 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
SENATOR CHARLIE HUGGINS
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented SB 189 as sponsor.
DUANE BANNOCK, Director
Division of Motor Vehicles (DMV)
Department of Administration
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented information and answered
questions during the hearing on SB 189.
MARGARET STOCK
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Listed the impacts of SB 189, and clarified
the differences between it and the Real ID Act.
KEITH W. BELL
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testifying on behalf himself during the
hearing on SB 189.
BILL SCANNELL, Communications Director
The Identity Project
(No address provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified and answered questions during the
hearing on SB 189.
ANASTASIA MIRANOVA
(No address provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of herself in
opposition to SB 189.
CRAIG TILLERY, Deputy Attorney General
Civil Division, Office of the Attorney General
Department of Law
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions during the hearing on SB
86.
RANDY RUARO, Assistant Attorney General & Legislative Liaison
Legislation & Regulations Section
Civil Division (Juneau)
Department of Law
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on SB 86.
ACTION NARRATIVE
CHAIR PAUL SEATON called the House State Affairs Standing
Committee meeting to order at 8:09:25 AM. Representatives
Gatto, Elkins, Lynn, Gruenberg, and Seaton were present at the
call to order. Representative Gardner arrived as the meeting
was in progress.
SB 189-REQUIREMENTS FOR DRIVER'S LICENSE/I.D.
8:10:03 AM
CHAIR SEATON announced that the first order of business was CS
FOR SENATE BILL NO. 189(STA), "An Act relating to issuance of
identification cards and to issuance of driver's licenses; and
providing for an effective date."
8:10:07 AM
SENATOR CHARLIE HUGGINS, Alaska State Legislature, presented SB
189 as sponsor. He said he and Representative Lynn teamed up to
present legislation based on the federal Real ID Act. He stated
that the bill is really about knowing who is being issued
driver's licenses.
8:14:15 AM
SENATOR HUGGINS said the question is: "What is the role of the
driver's license?" Senator Huggins stated his belief that the
answer to that question is that a driver's license is meant to
allow a person to drive a vehicle. However, he noted that in
fact, the role is broader than that; a driver's license is used
for a number of purposes, including cashing checks at a bank and
boarding airplanes. He relayed that he had a similar experience
with his son and daughter as Representative Gatto had with his
son, related to difficulty in getting a driver's license. He
indicated that [the stringent requirements in getting a license]
are okay with him. He talked about the United States being a
battleground, with color-coded security alerts showing up on the
bottom of television screens. He stated that SB 189 will bring
Alaska close to being completely in compliance [with the Real ID
Act]. He mentioned his own service in Vietnam and the service
of those currently in Iraq, and he said, "I think this is a
reasonable thing to do for Alaskans."
8:17:11 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO reiterated a story [he had told during
another House State Affairs Standing Committee meeting], of the
steps taken to prove his son's identification for the DMV. He
said the basic question is whether "we" trust our government.
For example, he said, "If indeed we turn over data to our
government, what will they do with it?" He stated that there
are a number of government people in Alaska that he would trust
with his life, but Alaska is now entering into a "50-state
cooperative agreement," which means that the trust must extend
throughout the Lower 48. He said there is a question to be
considered regarding trust, and he said he personally trusts the
government "as a large group."
8:19:24 AM
CHAIR SEATON said Senator Huggins has hit on key of what the
committee has been trying to clarify, which is what the role of
the driver's license is. He asked Senator Huggins to state what
he projects would be the role of the driver's license in
conjunction with the bill.
8:20:13 AM
SENATOR HUGGINS answered that although the number one function
of the driver's license is to validate that a person can legally
drive, the bill recognizes that its scope is actually much
bigger than that. In response to a question from Chair Seaton,
he said it is his experience that without showing a driver's
license number to the bank teller, a person cannot get his/her
check cashed. He offered further details. In response to a
follow-up question from Chair Seaton, he said perhaps other
people use other types of photo identification, but the driver's
license is the photo identification that is common to all
Alaskans that drive vehicles.
8:23:21 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER observed that the sponsor statement says
the proposed legislation is "designed to bring Alaska into
compliance with the new federal Real ID Act." She highlighted a
portion of the fiscal note, which read: "Other costs may be
associated with the Real ID Act that will not be noted until
later." She asked for an explanation.
8:23:59 AM
DUANE BANNOCK, Director, Division of Motor Vehicles (DMV),
Department of Administration, told the committee that SB 189
addresses a portion of the Real ID Act. He added that he is
pleased to report that a majority of the Real ID Act is already
in play in Alaska [through the practices of the division].
Regarding the sentence from the fiscal note quoted by
Representative Gardner, he explained as follows:
The federal rule-making committee that is determining
the minutia of the bill is in play. Those actual
rules for implementation have not yet been determined.
And quite frankly, that's a good reason to attempt to
criticize the Real ID Act, although I don't believe
that that criticism is fair to this particular bill.
8:25:22 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER asked if there is any reason why the
Alaska State Legislature should not wait until all the rules are
in place before it attempts to comply [with the Real ID Act].
8:25:35 AM
MR. BANNOCK explained why he would recommend against waiting, as
follows:
There does not appear to be anything in the federal
rule-making committee that leads to any gray area as
to the question, "Is legal presence a requirement
under the ... Real ID Act?"
... We, in Alaska, do not have, by statute, a legal
presence, and legal presence is simply defined as
"legally being in America."
MR. BANNOCK said everyone who is in the United States legally is
covered by the proposed legislation.
8:26:47 AM
SENATOR HUGGINS added that the current top concern of citizens
is the issue of immigration. He indicated that he thinks people
in Anchorage and the Matanuska-Susitna Valley support having
parameters related to those visiting the United States and think
someone illegally in the United States should not have an Alaska
driver's license.
8:27:43 AM
CHAIR SEATON asked Mr. Bannock to list the current forms of
legal identification, explain how that list would change as a
result of SB 189, and describe how the DMV will handle any new
identification requirements.
8:28:02 AM
MR. BANNOCK directed attention to a 3-page handout in the
committee packet, regarding identification and proof of date of
birth and the primary and secondary documents accepted. He
emphasized that Alaska does not issue driver's licenses to
anyone who is illegally present in the country. He said little
will change if SB 189 is passed into law.
8:31:30 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER asked Mr. Bannock if he anticipates that
when the regulations [for the Real ID Act] are complete and the
state knows the final cost of implementation, there will be a
mechanism in place to keep copies of all the documents that the
DMV would require to make them available to other states.
8:31:46 AM
MR. BANNOCK answered that there will be a mechanism in place for
the retention of the verification documents that are looked at
by the DMV currently, for example, a birth certificate.
However, after retaining the documentation, the DMV does not
share it with other states. What is shared with other states,
both currently and under the Real ID Act, is the Driver License
Compact (DLC). He explained that when a person moves to Alaska
and says he/she was licensed in another state, the DMV will
verify that information to find out what class of license the
person had, and whether that license was current or suspended,
for example. In response to a question from Representative
Gardner, Mr. Bannock said the DMV currently does not keep copies
of people's birth certificates, but it plans to do so by May
2008. However, those copies will not be made available to other
states.
8:34:50 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked, "Do all 50 states require a state-
certified birth certificate?"
MR. BANNOCK said he would go out on a limb to say no.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO pointed out that the Alaska DMV will not
issue an Alaska driver's license to an Alaska resident without
seeing a birth certificate, yet it will issue an Alaska driver's
license to someone who has moved to Alaska from another state
that does not require a birth certificate. He asked, "Does that
diminish the certification value of an Alaska driver's license
if there's more than one way to get it?"
8:36:00 AM
MR. BANNOCK said Representative Gatto is 100 percent correct,
and that is what is considered one of the giant loopholes that
exist. However, he stated, "Pending regulations will eliminate
that option." In response to a remark by Chair Seaton, he
emphasized that it is by regulation, not statute, that the DMV
currently accepts another state's driver's license.
CHAIR SEATON asked if the division is just developing the
regulations.
MR. BANNOCK responded that the division is actually nearing the
end of developing the regulations, with a projected
implementation date of July 1. He added, "Our hope is that
those new regulations will coincide with the implementation of
this law."
CHAIR SEATON said, "Then if someone comes from another state,
unless that state has adopted the Real ID Act - which none have
done to date, I gather - their driver's license will not ...
serve for getting an Alaska driver's license."
8:38:53 AM
MR. BANNOCK answered that he doesn't think that is correct. He
clarified, "What we will not be doing is taking any state's
driver's license as proof of identity at the DMV; it will be
proof that they know how to drive and that they have passed
their skills test." In response to a remark by Chair Seaton, he
explained that a person who moves to Alaska and applies for a
driver's license will need to supply two items off the
aforementioned list of primary and secondary identification
documents; the person's driver's license will not longer be on
the list. In response to a request for clarification from Chair
Seaton, he said it will be "next September" when the DMV will no
longer accept a driver's license for identification, and he
reiterated that the change will be made in regulation, not in
statute.
8:42:35 AM
MR. BANNOCK, in response to a question from Representative
Gatto, said a person who arrived from out of state today to
apply to the DMV for a driver's license, if qualified, would be
issued an Alaska driver's license that would expire on his/her
birthday "in the following five years," even if the license the
person brought to the DMV was about to expire in three days.
8:42:57 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if a person with an expired license
is allowed to board Alaska Airlines.
8:43:19 AM
MR. BANNOCK responded that he has asked that exact question of
Alaska Airlines staff three times and is not able to offer an
answer to Representative Gatto.
8:43:33 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER relayed that her husband couldn't use his
expired license to get on a flight. She asked Mr. Bannock if a
person who comes to Alaska and is issued an Alaska driver's
license has to surrender his/her out-of-state license.
8:44:04 AM
MR. BANNOCK answered yes. He described the process of getting
an Alaska driver's license.
8:44:34 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER asked if a person with an out-of-state
license, who moves to Alaska and does not get an Alaska driver's
license within the 90-day required period, would still be "a
licensed driver allowing the terms of their insurance to be in
affect."
8:44:47 AM
MR. BANNOCK said he cannot answer that question. He said the
DMV is not set up as an enforcement agency.
8:45:23 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER recollected that Mr. Bannock or someone
else had testified that in order to have [motor vehicle]
insurance, a person must have a valid driver's license.
8:45:44 AM
MR. BANNOCK stated that he did not testify to that; however he
has heard that said before. He said clearly that is an
erroneous statement, considering there are company-owned
vehicles that get insured, as well as a growing number of people
who own vehicles but have a chauffeur drive them.
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER said she has to believe that if she owns
a car and has insurance on her vehicle, allowing someone
unlicensed to drive the car would void the insurance coverage.
MR. BANNOCK said he cannot respond to that statement with
authority.
8:46:36 AM
MR. BANNOCK, in response to a question from Representative Gatto
regarding the enforcement of the 90-day law, reiterated that he
is not a policeman and can only read the law as saying that the
out-of-state license is valid for 90 days.
8:47:25 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG directed attention to the previously
mentioned handout from Mr. Bannock relating to the DMV's
requirements for identification and proof of date of birth, and
he said he notes "the regulation that that is promulgated under
is 13 AAC 08.330(b)." He asked Mr. Bannock, "That is your
regulatory authority for this standard operating procedure,
sir?"
8:48:01 AM
MR. BANNOCK answered yes, currently it is.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG offered his understanding that a
procedure in an administrative agency must follow the regulation
- it can't go beyond the regulation.
MR. BANNOCK responded that he believes Representative Gruenberg
is correct.
8:48:42 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG provided to the committee [a five-page
handout in the committee packet showing 13 AAC 08.330] and
directed attention to subsection (b) on the first page of the
handout. He stated:
It looks to me like your standard operating procedure
requires only certain birth certificates of the United
States or [Canada], and ... you have to have
identification from only those countries. But it
doesn't look like the regulation limits birth
certificates or anything else - primary identification
documents - only to those countries. By narrowing it
only to those countries, aren't you going beyond the
scope of your regulatory, sir?
8:49:37 AM
MR. BANNOCK said that after the review he has done over the last
couple of weeks, he thinks Representative Gruenberg's point
could be argued. Conversely, in defense of the division, Mr.
Bannock pointed further down the page to [paragraph (4)], which
lists "other evidence of comparable validity." For example, Mr.
Bannock said the division does not have the ability to compare
the validity of a Japanese birth certificate. He said he thinks
Representative Gruenberg's point is that without certain
authority, the division must honor a Japanese birth certificate.
He emphasized that this is the first time that point has been
challenged in the three years that he has held the position of
director.
8:51:10 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG stated for the record that his
questions to Mr. Bannock today and in the past have been
designed to ensure that Mr. Bannock and the Division of Motor
Vehicles are on firm legal footing. He said the legislature has
a duty to make certain that its state government is protected
legally. He added, "That's the spirit in which I'm asking my
questions."
8:51:56 AM
MR. BANNOCK directed attention to a one-page handout answering
questions asked by the House State Affairs Standing Committee
during its meeting on 4/4/06 [added to the bill packet
subsequent to the meeting]. Paraphrasing from the handout, he
stated, "If the committee concurs with Representative
Gruenberg's opinion [that] the DMV today does not have the
authority to deny an application for a driver's license to an
illegal alien, then I believe that underscores the point and
purpose of this pending legislation."
8:52:17 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG responded that that is exactly his
point, that "this legislation would, without doubt, make this
standard operating procedure legal."
8:52:39 AM
CHAIR SEATON noted that the aforementioned [paragraph (4)] lists
identification card, social security card, credit card, life
insurance policy, and "any other evidence of comparable
validity," as acceptable forms of identification. He stated,
"It appears there has been some narrowing beyond law of the
allowable documents, but that's not where we're at today."
8:53:23 AM
MR. BANNOCK stated, "... Any document that is a birth
certificate, that uses the word, 'certified,' will be accepted
at the Division of Motor Vehicles." He explained that would
include a certified birth certificate from a hospital, as well
as one from the Department of Health [& Social Services].
8:54:08 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked Mr. Bannock if he agrees that it is a
privilege, not a right, to have a driver's license.
8:54:32 AM
MR. BANNOCK confirmed that the word "privilege" is used in
statute.
8:54:45 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said:
What would happen if a perfectly legitimate, certified
American went in to get his driver's license, because
he needed it for ID and couldn't pass his driver's
test? He would not have, then, the ID that we are
trying to essentially say, "This is ... your ID now."
8:55:16 AM
MR. BANNOCK replied that that is a good point, and a it is a
point that SB 189 addresses. He continued:
Keep in mind this bill in front of you is for two
documents that the DMV sells: one is an
identification card, and one is a driver's license.
So, while some of the debate has issued on, "Should a
driver's license be required to be done when we cash a
check or get on an airplane," just take that and throw
it in the trash if you want to. And the other half of
the bill speaks to an identification card, which it's
only goal in life is to prove your identity. Often
times, people in Alaska lose their driving privileges,
and they physically have their driver's license taken
away from them - for all kinds of reasons. Then,
often times, that same customer will come to the
division to buy an identification card, just so that
they don't have those particular issues.
MR. BANNOCK, in response to a question from Representative
Gatto, confirmed that a person who loses his/her driver's
license has to surrender it, and anyone who has a driver's
license can also get an identification card.
8:57:05 AM
SENATOR HUGGINS said teachers today wear photo identification
while on school grounds. He said everyone present knows what
happened at Pearl Harbor, and that was exceeded only by [the
terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001]. Senator Huggins said
there are people who want to do harm to the United States and
Alaskan legislators can contribute in guarding against that. He
said his intent is not to tread on the liberties of good,
upstanding Americans. He noted that taking shoes off for
security at the airports has become an expectation. He
concluded, "There are some expectations that are new to us in
our country, and I just ask you to think about that today when
you gain the opportunity to finally consider this bill."
8:59:00 AM
MARGARET STOCK stated that although she is an Associate
Professor of Law at West Point, New York, and a Lieutenant
Colonel of the Military Police in the United States Army
Reserve, she is testifying on behalf of herself - an Alaskan -
and none of her opinions are those of any government agency.
She said she has reviewed SB 189, and it is not in compliance
with the Real ID Act of 2005 and, as written, is facially
unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause of the U.S.
Constitution, as well as under the Alaska State Constitution.
She revealed that her expertise in making those statements comes
from having acted as attorney in a class action lawsuit filed
against the State of Alaska Department of Revenue. She said she
was awarded approximately $100,000 in attorney's fees for a
similar type of statute that was invalid under Equal Protection
grounds.
MS. STOCK said she teaches national security law and is quite
familiar with the unfortunate events of [the terrorist attacks
of September 11, 2001]. She stated that there is a myth
circulating that somehow the terrorist acts of 9/11 could have
been prevented if only "people were tougher with driver's
licenses." She said that is not the case at all and, in fact,
bills such as SB 189 and the Real ID Act would have done
absolutely nothing to stop terrorists from boarding airplanes.
She explained:
How can they do that? Well, terrorists aren't always
foreigners, for one thing. Terrorists aren't always
illegal, for another thing. And even if you were
illegal in the United States today, and you didn't
have a driver's license, you can still get on an
airplane with a passport from a foreign country. And
that will still be allowed under the Real ID Act when
it goes into effect, and when states begin complying
with it, that will still be the case.
MS. STOCK said she thinks people fail to appreciate what a value
it is to law enforcement to have as many people licensed as
possible. She said it may sound radical to members of the
committee, but it is her personal view that an attempt should be
made to license everybody and put them in the database, because
after [the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001], one of the
key investigative resources available to figure out where the
terrorists had been, who they had talked to, and where they
lived was the fact that they had driver's licenses. She
continued:
Why is this the case? Well, there is no federal
national database that tracks Americans, or anybody in
the United States, really, unless they voluntarily
report to Homeland Security. In the case of the
terrorists, the American Association of Motor Vehicle
Administrators has admitted that the driver's license
database was key to the post 9/11 investigation,
because it provided information on what states the
terrorists had been in, it gave biometrics, photos,
addresses, and all that sort of thing. What will
happen with a bill like this, is it will reduce the
number of people who are in that law enforcement ...,
driver's license database, which collectively [is] the
biggest law enforcement database in the country, and
make it harder to prosecute people, believe it or not.
And it's going to make it very difficult after the
fact to figure out where people have been.
9:02:27 AM
MS. STOCK stated that the proposed legislation will have a big
effect on lawful residents of the U.S.
9:03:22 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GARDNER said she would like Ms. Stock to expound
further on the constitutional issues of SB 189.
9:04:22 AM
CHAIR SEATON asked that Ms. Stock focus mainly on the Alaska
State Constitution.
9:04:35 AM
MS. STOCK said she thinks what she says will apply to both the
U.S. Constitution and the Alaska State Constitution, the only
big difference being "the test that's applied to see whether
equal protection is violated." She directed attention to [page
1, Section 1, subsection (h), of] SB 189, which read as follows:
(h) The department may not issue an
identification card under (a) of this section to a
person who has not presented to the department valid
documentary evidence that the person is a citizen of
the United States, a national of the United States, a
legal permanent resident of the United States, or a
conditional resident alien of the United States
MS. STOCK said the problem with that language is that it leaves
out a huge category of Alaskans who are legally present in
Alaska and are protected under the Equal Protection Clause, and
are supposed to be treated equivalently to lawful, permanent
residents, conditional residents, citizens, and nationals. She
said this category includes "asylees" and refugees, persons who
have been admitted indefinitely to the United States because
they have been persecuted or have a well-founded fear of
persecution in their home country. Eventually these people will
become lawful permanent residents and citizens, and under Equal
Protection principles they're supposed to be treated similarly.
The Real ID Act, Ms. Stock said, treats them similarly, but [SB
189] discriminates against them by only giving them a one-year,
temporary license. She added, "And I'm sure they're going to
sue, because it's a pretty easy case."
9:06:12 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked, "If somebody here is ... permitted to
be here as a refugee, would that not be legal presence, as
entertained by this bill?"
9:06:34 AM
MS. STOCK explained the problem is that in subsection (h), it
states that an identification card cannot be issued under [AS
18.65.310(a)] to anyone who is not a citizen, national, legal
permanent resident, or conditional resident alien of the United
States. Subsection (a) read as follows:
(a) Upon payment of a $15 fee, the department
shall issue a card identical to the motor vehicle
operator's license provided for in AS 28.15.111,
except that the card shall be of a different color and
shall state in bold type letters across the face of it
that it is for identification purposes only.
MS. STOCK said refugees and asylees are "not going to fall under
that"; therefore, the only card available to them, would be that
described [in Section 1, subsection (i), beginning on page 1,
line 10, through page 2, line 2], which read as follows:
(i) Notwithstanding (h) of this section, the
department may issue an identification card to a
person who presents in person valid, documentary
evidence of the person's legal status and presence in
the United States. The identification card authorized
under this subsection is valid only during the period
of the time of the person's authorized stay in the
United States and must clearly indicate that
expiration date. If the period of authorized stay is
indefinite, the expiration date for the identification
card is one year from the date of issue.
MS. STOCK pointed out that for refugees and asylees, their stay
is indefinite; therefore, the expiration date of one year treats
them differently than the citizens, nationals, legal permanent
residents, and conditional resident aliens. She said the result
will be that the refugees and asylees will complain that there
is a violation of the Equal Protection Act. Federal and state
law is crystal clear on the subject, she said, and those who
bring a complaint to court will win their cases.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN responded, "Well, it's not crystal clear to
me."
MS. STOCK stated, "Real ID clearly treats them the same as those
other categories of people - it doesn't require them to have
shorter licenses - because the lawyers in Congress know that you
can't do that because it's unconstitutional."
9:07:38 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked what the cost of implementing SB
189 would be.
9:07:57 AM
MS. STOCK said the cost is difficult to figure out. She
explained that, contrary to [Mr. Bannock's] testimony that the
DMV is almost in compliance with the Real ID Act, if the
committee were to look at the language of the Act, it would find
that the DMV is not even close to being in compliance. She
continued:
To get into compliance with [the] Real ID [Act], we're
talking about probably millions of dollars. ... This
is an issue that has been debated on the national
level by numerous states, by the American Association
of Motor Vehicles, [and] National Governors.
Everybody's upset about this bill, [because the] Real
ID Act is essentially ... a huge, unfunded federal
mandate.
... If your impression is that the cost estimates that
DMV is giving you are going to get you into compliance
with [the] Real ID [Act], that's not the case, ... and
you're going to have to spend lots and lots of money.
I think the State of Virginia had an estimate of $63
million per year ... to comply with [the] Real ID
[Act]. ... This is one of the reasons that a lot of
the states are getting upset and anxious about
attempting to comply with it, because they're not
getting any money from the federal government ... to
do it.
9:09:19 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked Ms. Stock to list some specifics
costs.
9:09:27 AM
MS. STOCK articulated the following:
I have the Real ID [Act] in front of me - it finally
passed. And just for reference, this is part of [An
act making Emergency Supplemental Appropriations for
Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief,
for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2005, and for
other purposes.] ... It started off as House
Resolution 1268. It did not get a whole lot of debate
or markup, which is one of the reasons why it's
controversial, because there wasn't an opportunity to
point out many of the flaws in it. It was passed
because everybody wanted to vote for tsunami relief
and it was stuck in a large, Department of Defense
bill. It actually even contains [typographical
errors] in it, in the spellings and things like that,
because it wasn't bedded very well.
But just to give you an example [of] the minimum
document requirements, the bill requires that the
following things appear on a driver's license: the
person's full legal name, ... date of birth, ...
gender, ... driver's license or identification card
number, a digital photograph of the person, [and] the
person's address of principle residence. Now, I'll
pause there, because there's more. But in Alaska,
very few people out in the Bush have their address or
... principle residence on their driver's license.
The DMV doesn't put that on there; they put their
mailing address. So, that's just one point that we're
not in compliance with. There may be federal
regulations coming out that will change that - we'll
have to see - but that issue was one of the
controversial ones, because battered women, for
example, have to put their principle residence now on
the driver's license, under [the] Real ID [Act].
9:11:28 AM
CHAIR SEATON said he does not want the discussion to move beyond
the scope of SB 189 in addressing the Real ID Act.
9:11:34 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG explained that the committee has spent
some time discussing the accuracy of the fiscal note, and Ms.
Stock's testimony addresses the inaccuracy of it.
9:11:50 AM
CHAIR SEATON stated, "I want to come back to the fiscal note and
what it attaches to this bill, and not other provisions that are
not included in this bill."
9:12:21 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked Ms. Stock if SB 189 would create
any security risks or vulnerabilities.
9:12:33 AM
MS. STOCK answered, "In fact, any of these bills, as enacted,
potentially have security issues, and [the] Real ID Act also has
security issues." She recollected that [Representative Gatto]
had previously spoken about the issue of trusting the
government. She stated that she works for the government and
generally trusts it. She said she also knows that there have
been huge security vulnerabilities within federal and state
governments because of access to data. She said imposing an
increasing number of requirements related to driver's licenses
and, thus, collecting more data and information from people,
results in the creation of security vulnerability. She
continued:
[The] Real ID [Act] is going to require that state DMV
employees get security clearances. That's another
point ... [illustrating] why this bill's not in
compliance with [the Act]. ... State DMVs have
actually been a big source of security threat, because
they have documents they possess that are about
people, and if you can get a hold of those documents,
you can commit identity theft. The DMV in Alaska has
had a problem in the past with this - with identity
theft occurring - because DMV did not properly handle
documents. And continuing to build on the idea of
collecting documents and properly securing them does
create potential security threat.
9:14:09 AM
KEITH W. BELL, testifying on behalf himself, told the committee
that he is an attorney in Anchorage who has limited his practice
to immigration law since 1980. He said he is also a former
chair of the Washington State Chapter of the American
Immigration Lawyers Association. He revealed that he represents
a number of clients in Alaska who would love to drive, and whose
presence in Alaska is lawful, but who are not citizens,
permanent residents, or even refugees. He clarified that he is
speaking of people in the state with nonimmigrant visas -
usually in employment-authorized or student categories. In
response to a question from Chair Seaton, he explained that
these groups of people have visas with certain letters of the
alphabet on them related to certain visa categories. He offered
details regarding the various categories. He said that because
the bill is painted with a such a broad brush, the people in
those categories would not be able to drive. Mr. Bell opined
that it is beyond the expertise of a clerk in the DMV office to
determine whether or not a person's lawful status is properly
documented, and the state has no business getting involved in
deciding, at that level, whether a person's federal immigration
status is valid or not.
9:20:53 AM
BILL SCANNELL, Communications Director, The Identity Project,
said the Identity Project is a 501(3)(c), nonprofit group
devoted to issues of identity, identification cards, and "what
this means to us as Americans as we make our way through
society." He talked about his experience in Berlin, during the
Cold War, where there were guards at towers asking to see
people's [identification] papers. He stated, "I think the last
thing that we want to build in our own country is a 'papers
please' society." Mr. Scannell, regarding SB 189, said the
bill's supporters try to paint it as some sort of immigration
measure, when it really is a move for a national ID card. He
said the implementation of not only the Real ID Act, but the
small portion that is SB 189, will be expensive. He said he has
not seen a single [cost-related] number out of the DMV, but
other states' numbers are available. In California, the head of
the Department of Motor Vehicles testified that the cost would
be half a billion dollars just to "get the ball rolling," with
an expense of several hundred million dollars a year for the
following years. Mr. Scannell offered further examples. He
relayed that the implementation of the Real ID Act will be
difficult for Alaskans, because the DMV will be making the
determination of whether or not people in the state are [legally
present].
9:25:47 AM
MR. SCANNELL, in response to a remark from Representative Lynn,
said the DMV will be "collecting citizenship documents from
honest people and determining whether they can, in fact, have
this Real ID card."
9:26:02 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN stated, "We're not debating the Real ID Act,
we're debating SB 189."
9:26:17 AM
MR. SCANNELL concluded that, as of yet, there have been no final
standards issued from "Homeland Security" as to what will be
required to be fully compliant with the Real ID Act. He said
the Act was passed under "very unusual circumstance through
Congress," and he wonders if the cart has been put before the
horse. He stated that Alaskans have a constitutional right to
privacy, and the idea of putting "all of this data" on a
national network that any DMV employee, anywhere in the country
can access scares him. He added, "And I think it should scare
all of us."
9:27:00 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said the right to privacy has been
interpreted rather broadly, and he offered his understanding
that that right is not expressed in the United States
Constitution.
9:27:24 AM
MR. SCANNELL replied that the right to privacy has been
interpreted through the Fourth Amendment of the U.S.
Constitution, by former U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D.
Brandeis, but he emphasized that in the Alaska State
Constitution it is clearly expressed.
9:27:39 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO talked about "bad guys," and asked if it
would make sense to track them, or is there an issue that says
leaving them alone is better than knowing who they are.
9:28:31 AM
MR. SCANNELL, in response to a question from Representative
Gatto, said he doesn't think any of this legislation applies to
illegal immigrants. The people that are going to have documents
issued to them are people that are legally here; therefore, he
said he believes "we are talking about punishing honest people."
He relayed that he has heard the head of the DMV in California
tell a Senator there that nothing the DMV can do will help
staunch the flow of illegal immigrants to the state, because
[the] Real ID [Act] only applies to citizens and people who are
legally in the state. Bad people will steal identities and
create documents to serve their purposes, he said.
9:29:32 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO suggested that if the state tags honest
people, it would, by a process of elimination, figure out who
the dishonest people are.
MR. SCANNELL responded that he did not serve over four years in
the U.S. Army in order for the nation to have a national ID
card, which he is against having. He said others may be for
having a national ID card, but if one is to be considered, let
it be done through "proper national debate."
9:30:42 AM
ANASTASIA MIRANOVA testified on behalf of herself in opposition
to SB 189. She told the committee that she is a foreign
exchange student from Russia who graduated in 2004, from UAA,
with a double bachelor degree in Mathematics and Computer
Science. She said she has done research under a grant from the
National Institute of Health, and this summer, she will intern
as a research scientist for ConocoPhillips Alaska, Inc.
MS. MIRANOVA stated that she is critical of many aspects of the
United States' immigration procedures, but she asked the
committee not to interpret her criticism as a lack of gratitude
for the opportunity she has been afforded. She continued:
I originally came under a Rotary exchange program. I
was lucky to get here, especially because the U.S.
Consulate approves only half of Russian student
applicants. My visa wasn't issued for the full length
of my degree program. It has now expired, and I'm
allowed to stay, as long as I'm in school with a
current I-20 enrollment document. Since I arrived,
I've had eight of these forms. I have never violated
an immigration law, yet I am photographed and
fingerprinted, along with every other foreign student,
whenever I enter this country. My student status, and
even my class schedule, are tracked very closely in
the federal computer system .... Any time [that] I do
not comply with my status, I am reported to the
[Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS)] as
being out of status.
Have you ever been fingerprinted at any border? If
you've ... been arrested, I understand the need for
security, but these measures seem plenty sufficient to
me - you don't need to add any more. Because of U.S.
visa regulations, I can only travel within North
America in my current status. I haven't been able to
see my mother in three years. She lives alone on $100
a month. If I go home, there is only a 50 percent
chance that I will be issued another visa to return to
complete my degree here. I miss my mom more than you
can imagine, but I can't take the chance that I would
not be able to complete my Ph.D. if I go visit her.
It can be a large sacrifice to study here.
MS. MIRANOVA addressed the subject of driver's licenses as
follows:
I spent the first two years here without an Alaska ID
or a driver's license, because I did not need them for
any reason. I opened a bank account with my passport,
before I had a social security number. I flew
domestically in the U.S. with my passport many times.
I have never had a problem. The only reason I did get
a driver's license was because ... that was the only
way to get reasonable insurance prices on my car. My
Russian driver's license doesn't expire until the year
2063. The Alaska DMV wouldn't let me take the
driver's test the first time, because my car wasn't
insured. It was nearly impossible to find insurance
without having a U.S. license. It was a catch-22
situation. I eventually found some very expensive
insurance that insured my car with my Russian driver's
license. I drove here for several months with that,
but it got so expensive, that I went in again to try
to obtain an Alaska license. I was successful that
time.
Now, under this new law, I have had eight I-20 student
enrollments forms issued to me since I arrived in this
country. There is no way I would have been able to
return to the DMV eight times to return my license.
The shortest I-20 form that I was issued was valid for
37 days. I hope you realize how ridiculous and a
waste of everyone's time and money it is to make me
renew my license twice, every five weeks. Honestly, I
would have not obtained an Alaska license in the first
place if I knew that I would have to deal with this.
Many of my fellow students would feel the same way.
... This level of bureaucracy reminds me of Russia
very much.
9:36:33 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked if it is possible for someone to go to
Russia and legally obtain a Russia driver's license, without
being legally present there.
MS. MIRANOVA answered, yes. She said there are many ways of
going about that.
9:37:03 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said he thinks the federal government would
want to know more about a person from another country studying
math, than about someone picking corn. He asked Ms. Miranova,
"So, would you agree or disagree that because you have come here
and done things that are national security issues, you should be
tracked more closely than someone who comes here to be a farm
worker?"
9:38:00 AM
MS. MIRANOVA answered that if the research involved is at a
national security level, international students would not be
allowed to participate.
The committee took an at-ease from 9:40:26 AM to 9:40:31 AM.
9:40:50 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN stated that he cannot believe the testimony
he has heard in opposition to SB 189. He continued:
What ever happened to common sense ...? How in the
world can anyone in the U.S. or Alaska have any legal
privileges on driving or anything else if you're not
here with a legal presence? Every once in awhile we
get a bill before us that makes imminent common sense,
and I think this bill is one of those. And I think
it's certainly supported by the great majority of our
constituents all over the state of Alaska.
9:41:40 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN moved to report [CSSB 189(STA)] out of
committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying
fiscal notes.
9:42:18 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG objected.
CHAIR SEATON stated for the record that there is other written
testimony in the committee packet.
9:42:57 AM
A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Gatto and Lynn
voted in favor of moving [CSSB 189(STA)] out of committee.
Representatives Gruenberg and Seaton voted against it.
Therefore, [CSSB 189(STA)] failed to move out of committee by a
vote of 2-2.
The committee took an at-ease from 9:43:42 AM to 9:49:15 AM.
SB 86-STATE/MUNI LIABILITY FOR ATTORNEY FEES
9:49:17 AM
CHAIR SEATON announced that the last order of business was CS
FOR SENATE BILL NO. 86(CRA)(efd fld), "An Act relating to the
liability of the state and municipalities for attorney fees in
certain civil actions and appeals."
9:49:53 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG directed attention to a memorandum
dated April 26, 2006, from Dennis Bailey to Representative Les
Gara, the first paragraph of which read as follows:
You asked for an opinion whether a two-thirds vote is
required for passage of CSSB 86(CRA). The short
answer is yes. The bill modifies Civil Rule 82, which
provides for court-awarded attorney fees. Article IV,
sec. 15, Constitution of the State of Alaska requires
a two-thirds vote by the members in each house to
change a court rule. Accordingly, there should be a
section and court rule change notice in the title of
the modification of Civil Rule 82.
9:51:12 AM
CRAIG TILLERY, Deputy Attorney General, Civil Division, Office
of the Attorney General, Department of Law, at the behest of
Representative Gruenberg, read the first paragraph out loud.
9:51:46 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked, assuming that that legal opinion
is correct, what the cost would be to the state of defending
such a lawsuit, including "the potential exposure for the other
side's attorney fees."
9:52:19 AM
MR. TILLERY responded that he would have to go back and look at
that. Notwithstanding that, he said based on the litigation in
House Bill 145, "it would be some relatively small fraction of
that." He said he couldn't offer an estimate on the spot.
9:52:45 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said he would like to have an answer to
that in writing from Mr. Tillery. Furthermore, he said he would
also like in writing what the state's cost to date are for a
case relating to the Native village of Nunapitchuk.
MR. TILLERY, in response to a question from Chair Seaton, said
the Department of Law holds a view contrary to the one expressed
in the aforementioned memorandum. He stated, "This was actually
written in response to the superior court's decision. We have
looked at this and feel fairly confident a two-thirds vote is
not required in order for the legislature to assert sovereign
immunity."
9:54:53 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked Mr. Tillery, "Does this ...
legislation also involve the award of costs under Rule 79, or
are you conceding that they would still be entitled to their
costs and, as I recall, be immunized from an award of attorney
costs in case the state prevailed under [Rule] 79?"
9:55:28 AM
MR. TILLERY replied, "This bill only deals with attorney fees."
9:57:00 AM
RANDY RUARO, Assistant Attorney General & Legislative Liaison,
Legislation & Regulations Section, Civil Division (Juneau),
Department of Law, in response to a question from Chair Seaton,
said he thinks that attorneys do have an obligation to zealously
represent their clients. However, he said, they also have an
obligation not to needless drive up the expense of litigation by
"throwing in a kitchen sink worth of claims ... in the hopes
that one will stick." He said it's a matter of balance.
9:57:42 AM
CHAIR SEATON clarified that he wants confirmation that the
department is not saying that "for someone to only win on two
sections of the suit really meant that they had lost the suit,"
but that "some of the theories of action they might prevail on
... could be the substance of the suit, even if it's ... a
minority of the number of theories."
9:58:19 AM
MR. RUARO responded, "That's part of the problem of allowing the
courts to handle the issue on a case-by-case basis; it's very
hard to predict what you actually do have to do to be considered
a prevailing public interest litigant." He said case law seems
to be constantly evolving. He added, "I guess we would argue
why it would be a better function under Article 2, Section 21 of
the constitution for the legislature to ... decide it."
9:59:05 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG prefaced his subsequent motion with the
statement that he plans to vote against the bill.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved to report CSSB 86(CRA)(efd fld)
out of committee with individual recommendations and the
accompanying fiscal notes.
CHAIR SEATON [objected].
9:59:47 AM
A roll call vote was taken. Representative Lynn voted in favor
of moving CSSB 86(CRA)(efd fld) out of committee.
Representatives Gruenberg, Gatto, and Seaton voted against it.
Therefore, CSSB 86(CRA)(efd fld) failed to move out of the House
State Affairs Standing Committee by a vote of 1-3.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
State Affairs Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at
9:59:54 AM.
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